[Tradjazz] Vinyl goes from throwback to comeback

[muskrat at bestweb.net]

George (and everybody),

What started this thing was that original message which was passed on to
me.  My comments are my personal opinions and observations.  I have not
checked out the comparisons of sound, with any test equipment other than my
ears, which as yours, are pretty damned good judges of sound quality.

Perhaps someone more knowedgeable than we, will post some comments. For
that matter, I welcome comments from anyone and everyone.  
~
Yes, I too would suspect that a 78, being faster than 33.3, would
intrinsicaly have higher frequency ranges of reproduction.  That said, I
submit that since recording equipment and playback equipment had improved
drastically, the end result was that LPs are of a marked higher quality
than 78s (some of which, by the way, were produced on vinyl).

Let's talk about tapes for a moment.  When I was a kid, there was a tape
recorder made by Berlant (the Concertone) which was considered to be the
top of the line for "home" machines.  They ran at 7.5 i.p.s. and at 15
i.p.s.  They had 10" reels and they were mono (1/4" tape).

Then there were the more common machines which ran at 7.5 and at 3 3/4
i.p.s.  The higher speeds resulted in readily heard higher quality.  By
then those mono machines were so-called half-track.  That meant that you
could turn the tape over, and record "on the other side" (the other half of
the width of the tape).  As with tape speed (the higher the better) tape
width also affects the results.  Full-track uses more tape space for the
signal (as does higher tape speed).  Those machines used only half as much
tape as the full-track models.

Then came the stereo machines.  That further reduced the amount of tape
used.  At first glance, the quality was reduced.  But due to improved
electronics, and especially, to improved formulation of the tape, the
quality was actually better than the earlier models.  A higher quality tape
formulation, allowed for use of a louder signal which in turn improved the
signal-to noise ratio.  That means that you can play it back with a lower
volume setting and still get the same loudness.  The lower the playback
volume setting, the less noise (hiss etc.).
     ~~~
Sheesh!  How many of you have I lost by now?
     ~~~
The plot thickens . . . 

Enter: cassettes.  They are on 1/8th inch (wide) tapes and they play at
1.78 i.p.s. (barely moving compared to even 3 3/4.  AND they squeeze four
tracks onto the tape (two each way).  You'd think that they'd sound lousy,
but no. They equal or beat, the old Berlant Concertone machines.
~
Perhaps it's those same technical improvements that allow stereo platters
to sound as good as, and probably better than, their mono predecessors.
~~~~~~
~~~~~~
I have always lamented the loss of the LP album jackets.  Thanks to
companys such as Good Time Jazz, my basic education about our music was
gleaned from LP liner notes.  Of course, CDs often are accompanied by
voluminous notes but what with them being folded up and with the type-style
often being small, they sure ain't very user-friendly.
~~~~~~
~~~~~~
And if you like the idea that CDs require no needle or any direct contact
with the disc, think about more advanced methods which have no moving parts
at all.  That's gotta be better.
~~~~~~
George:  I submit that it is NOT "incumbent on ME" to find a scientific
explanation for all this.  Who would be a better person to follow this up,
than YOU , the very guy who suggested it.
~
I've been stating my own personal opinions.  I have a lifetime of
experience in these matters but I'm just another guy making comments.
~~~
C'MON GANG.  LET'S HEAR FROM YOU.

McN



----- Original Message ----- 
From: geohunt1 at aol.com 
To: muskrat at bestweb.net ; tradjazz at list.okom.com 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Tradjazz] Vinyl goes from throwback to comeback


Hi Bruce:

You have opened a bucket of worms.  Do you think that perhaps everyone
quoted in that article has had their ear drums burst from listening to
heavy metal rock and roll?  It is now incumbent upon you to find a
scientific expert's explanation of the subject, and publish it for us to
read. 

I am no scientific expert, but I know when we went from 78 PM to 33 1/3 RPM
(LP/Album/vinyl) we had the information on the disc pass the pick-up needle
at a much slower rate.  Fidelity (the faithfulness of the reproduced sound
compared to the original sound) had to suffer.  At that time, we also
switched from shellac discs to vinyl discs as our medium for storing our
recorded sound.  Was that good or bad?  Vinyl was smoother and wore down
less rapidly, but didn't that roughness on shellac add to fidelity?  This
ancient change (hell it was so long ago I know about it) was all in
monaural and the needle bounced along in the groove the same way. The vinyl
record wore out at a much slower rate than the shellac record did, and it
was much harder to break.  Very soon after the change from 78 RPM to LP (33
1/3) we had to put 2 tracks in the same groove at the same time because we
got stereo sound.  On play-back that same ne edle had to pick up 2 channels
of sound which they accomplished by making two channels each off of dead
center by 45 degrees, so the exact same record player that had been playing
monaural records count play stereo records without modification.  Going to
stereo on LP records certainty caused the fidelity to suffer as compared to
monaural on LP records.

That brings us up to the real subject: how much better (or worse) is the
compact disc (CD) than the LP (vinyl) at reproducing sound?  To me, a
casual observer, there should be no comparison, with the CD on top.  There
is no needle.  What a world of improvement that is.  CDs should not wear
out.  There is no needle rubbing the groove making noise.  What a world of
improvement that is. The sound is put into the grove with a laser beam with
the data moving at the speed of light.  On the LP we had a mechanical
thing, the needle, bouncing around on the sound data cut into the groove. 
(Cut into the groove of the master record, from which a "negative" was made
and used to press the LP, much like the machine used to press out
automobile tires.)

Bruce, like I said, I am no expert, but from an examination of the two
technologies, the CD should have orders of magnitude better fidelity than
the LP.

Please try to get the opinion (I mean the truth) from a scientist who is an
expert on the subject.

George




-----Original Message-----
From: muskrat at bestweb.net
To: tradjazz at list.okom.com
Sent: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:46 pm
Subject: Re: [Tradjazz] Vinyl goes from throwback to comeback


Man, this (see article below) is an interesting subject probably with no
real answer.

The large part of my collection is on vinyl (mostly LPs).  When CDs first
came out it was almost "accepted" by many, that LPs had a better sound. 
One of the main contributers to that concept was that in the beginning,
there weren't many CDs available.  Record companies began re-issuing
anything and everything, on CD.

I gather that artistic and technical matters were often skimmed over, in
order to get the product out there.  Loads of CD re-issues were sorely
inferior to the original vinyl.

~~~

Years ago Vince Giordano (leader of the wonderful 1920's style big band,
the Nighthawks) gave me a demonstration that really turned my head around. 
He had a portable wind-up record player on which he played a 78 that was
recorded acoustically.  It didn't have the rich sound of latter day
recordings but it absolultely astounded me.

The sound quality was extraordiary.

~~~

Then there was the long-running debate about how digital was brittle in its
sound.  Over the years, I've heard many CDs that exhibit this phenom.

~~~

When we got our first CD player at home, I recall sitting in front of it
one night, and being blown away by a CD of John Phillip Sousa music.  It
was unbelievable.  That same night, I threw on a Billy Joel LP and was
astounded to find that the audio quolity was just as good.  That gave me a
new respect for vinyl.

~~~

When I first started working with digital recordings (at OKOM) I too,
tended to like the sound of vinyl better.  As I slowly became adept at
working with digital (recording, mixing etc.).  Analog tape is very
forgiving.  If you overload the tape, the distortion is there but often
it's not really noticable.

Digital, on the other hand, simply will not put up with an "audio
overload."  Even a slight overload will result in a harsh and brittle
sound. One must be very careful when working in the digital domain.

I came to realize that digital is far superior, by a mile.

I find the reproduction of the music to be very very pure and not brittle
at all (although unless mixed properly, it will be).

~

It's not debatable that working with digital is an almost miraculous boon
for engineers and producers.  The days of cutting and pasting tape are gone
forever, but that's not enough to warrent using a system that is lacking in
audio quality.  It's that pristine sound that sells me on digital.

~~~

For me, vinyl will never die because of the wealth of material I have on
LPs.  That said, my love and respect for CDs is in firm place.  And, of
course, these days, even CDs are old hat.

McN

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>From the Boston Globe:
 
Vinyl goes from throwback to comeback Young fans say analog records sound
warmer and fuller than digital music
 
By Jonathan Perry, Globe Correspondent | June 2, 2008

Monica Morgan, an 18-year-old high school student from Jacksonville, Fla.,
is taking a breather from scouting prospective colleges in and around
Boston. She is standing inside Newbury Comics in Cambridge, scouring the
bins of new LP releases by artists such as Gnarls Barkley and Bjork. Rows
of colorful album covers catch her eye.

"My dad just gave me a record player, so I mostly like to buy vinyl," says
Morgan. A stash of records originally owned by her mother, and now
bequeathed to her, led Morgan to her latest love. "I have some old Beatles
records with my mom's maiden name on them," she says. "I just
like the way they sound."

Almost any other decade, this scenario would have been ordinary. But the
scene - a teenager perusing stacks of cumbersome vinyl in a sleek digital
age that is gradually rendering the compact disc obsolete - was unfolding
on a Friday afternoon in 2008. And it is one that is being replicated in
small but growing numbers across the country.

Although she may be an anomaly among her peers, Morgan and other young
music fans are embracing the virtues of vinyl.

Mike Dreese, cofounder and chief executive of the New England music store
chain Newbury Comics, says his company's vinyl sales, which had been
increasing at an annual rate of about 20 percent over the past five years,
are 80 percent higher than they were at this time last year.

"Right now, we're selling about $100,000 a month worth of vinyl,"
Dreese says.

But why vinyl and why now, especially when even CD sales have
plummeted 40 percent since 2005? Dreese blames the sterility of
technology. "I think there are a lot of people who are looking for
some kind of a throwback to something that's tangible," he says. "The CD
was a tremendous sonic package, but from a graphic standpoint, it was a
disaster. People still want a connection to an artist, and vinyl connects
them in a way that an erasable file doesn't."

Vinyl lovers insist that analog records sound warmer and fuller, as
opposed to the brighter yet brittle digital experience of CDs. The
compressed sound of MP3s, meanwhile, sacrifices both the highest and lowest
ends of the sonic spectrum.

"It's unbelievable how much vinyl's coming out," says Josh Bizar, sales
director for musicdirect, a company that specializes in analog products
ranging from new and reissued vinyl to turntables. "We're seeing this
explosion of young people under 25 who never even saw an LP as a child
running toward a format that was pronounced dead before they were even
born. But if a title has any kind of mass appeal, it's coming out on vinyl
today."

The new push for records is also coming from musicians. Elvis Costello
issued his new album, "Momofuku," on vinyl two weeks before the CD and
digital versions were released. And the Raconteurs, led by White Stripes
frontman Jack White, recommended that listeners hear their new album,
"Consolers of the Lonely," on vinyl (it is also available on CD and as a
download).

"I prefer vinyl," says White, 32. "We talk about this backstage; as
musicians it comes up a lot. It's a shame the new generation is
missing out on albums - not just the sound quality, but the artwork,
the experience of holding something tangible in your hands."

Scores of listeners have begun to follow White's example.

Bizar's firm, musicdirect, services 250 to 300 independent record and
electronics stores worldwide and stocks CDs and MP3 players. But it is the
company's analog-related inventory that is causing a stir: Sales of albums
and accessories like needle cartridges and record cleaners have jumped 300
percent in each of the past four years, according to Bizar.

Sales of turntables, which can run anywhere from $150 to $24,000 (including
models that can now transfer the sound on vinyl to a listener's portable
player or computer) have spiked 500 percent annually during the same time
span. Indeed, huge retail outlets such as Best Buy now stock an array of
turntable brands and styles that reflect the surge in both technology and
demand.

"They cannot make them fast enough," says Bizar. "Owning a record album is
certainly a lot cooler than owning a digital subset of zeroes and ones on a
computer. And the simple act of playing an LP takes a certain
single-mindedness that seems to go beyond today's culture of
multitasking. It's not as easy as just pushing a button."

Merge Records founder Mac McCaughan estimates that for every 10 albums his
label puts out as a digital download or CD, eight get a vinyl release.
"It's not going to come back and replace CDs or MP3s," he says. "But if you
do it right and make the vinyl heavy and make the packaging nice, it's
everything that people liked about music in the
first place."

Then there's what Bizar calls "the collectibility issue." A limited-edition
LP box set of Radiohead's 2007 album, "In Rainbows,"  which retailed for
about $80, sold out briskly. A recent search on eBay found the now
out-of-print package selling for $300.

Music fan Nick Pioggia, 25, buys even more vinyl now than he did as a
teenager. "I got into it because the [punk] music I was trying to find was
only available in that format," says Pioggia, who also runs a small label
called Painkiller Records in Boston. "No one cares about CDs anymore, but
someone will still buy an album because it's got the huge artwork and is a
limited pressing. That's the biggest draw."

New releases are typically being pressed on vinyl in quantities of
about 10,000 per title. But when it comes to the demand for lavish
reissues, that number can double or even triple. Bizar says his
company saw 35,000 advance orders for the four-LP edition of Led Zeppelin's
"Mothership," a career-spanning collection released this spring. While that
is certainly a far cry from vinyl's heyday of the 1970s, Bizar calls the
demand for a bulky box set that retails for roughly $60 a pop
"astonishing."

As an enticement for consumers to buy a record rather than a 99-cent
download of a single, artists and record labels now usually include a
CD version of the album with the LP package gratis, or enclose a
secret code that allows listeners to download for free the album they
just bought on vinyl.

The idea represents a compromise for convenience-minded consumers and
artists who want their creative work to be something more substantive than
a digital file. "If you're an artist," says Dreese, "you're like, 'What do
I have to show my grandkids?' 

No one artist has released more records since the early 1990s than Robert
Pollard, both solo and with his band, Guided By Voices.

"I have to have vinyl," says Pollard, who's issued dozens of records on
labels large and small, including his own in-house imprint. "To me it's
psychological. If it's not on an LP, it's not real. Anybody can
make a CD, but as we used to say, 'Vinyl's final.' "

Evan Shore, singer-guitarist for the Boston band Muck & the Mires, recently
announced that his band's next Extended Play would be a "vinyl-only
release." With a European tour this summer, the reasoning was simple:
"Vinyl is huge in Europe."

Geoff Chase, a 40-year-old "classic rock" fan from Watertown, says he
stopped buying records because many older titles weren't available on LP to
replace his worn copies. Until now.

"What got me back into it big time," says Chase, "was that one day I found
an old [stereo] receiver on the sidewalk."

He took it home, hooked the receiver up to his turntable, and put on his
copy of AC/DC's "Back in Black."

"I could not believe how good it sounded," Chase says. "I was blown away." 


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